Comments on: Universities and grandes écoles http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/ Tim King on French politics Fri, 04 Jul 2008 01:01:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.5 by: ange scalpel http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/#comment-21082 Thu, 23 Aug 2007 15:05:50 +0000 http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/#comment-21082 Dear Mrs Cairncross Many thanks for this very interesting information. In a sense the rate of children from the working classes is similar in both countries, and I'm afraid the proportion might be similar elsewhere in Europe and in the US. But what I find particularly hypocrital in France is the official claim that "university" education is open to everyone, which is true, while at the same time everyone know that there is a rival system, that of Grandes Ecoles, which is NOT open to everyone, and to which less and less children from the working classes have access. Some people propose reverse discrimination through bringing children from suburbs to prestigious center-of-town lycées or even schools ( as recently with Science Po in Paris). But apart from the debate about reverse discrimination ( Mr Sarkozy is for it, another example of his simple mindedness), one can wonder how such measures can be efficacious. They concern only a very small number of children. A much better politics who be to keep the "democratic" recruitment of universities, but with entrance exams of reasonable difficulty. This would be the end of "baccalaureat", but who cares : everyone knows it is worth almost nothing in most cases. And most of all, as soon as there is selection in universities, the attractiveness of Grandes Ecoles, which do select at their entrance, would fall down. Dear Mrs Cairncross

Many thanks for this very interesting information.
In a sense the rate of children from the working classes is similar in both countries, and I’m afraid the proportion might be similar elsewhere in Europe and in the US. But what I find particularly hypocrital in France is the official claim that “university” education is open to everyone, which is true, while at the same time everyone know that there is a rival system, that of Grandes Ecoles, which is NOT open to everyone, and to which less and less children from the working classes have access.
Some people propose reverse discrimination through bringing children from suburbs to prestigious center-of-town lycées or even schools ( as recently with Science Po in Paris). But apart from the debate about reverse discrimination ( Mr Sarkozy is for it, another example of his simple mindedness), one can wonder how such measures can be efficacious. They concern only a very small number of children. A much better politics who be to keep the “democratic” recruitment of universities, but with entrance exams of reasonable difficulty. This would be the end of “baccalaureat”, but who cares : everyone knows it is worth almost nothing in most cases. And most of all, as soon as there is selection in universities, the attractiveness of Grandes Ecoles, which do select at their entrance, would fall down.

]]> by: Frances Cairncross http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/#comment-20723 Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:06:35 +0000 http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/#comment-20723 Roughly a tenth of Oxbridge students come from the social classes that cover manual workers and the unemployed. But the sifting starts much earlier. Three-quarters of British 16 year-olds with parents in professional occupations are studying for A levels or the equivalent; under a third of students with parents in routine occupations are doing so. And roughly half the top A level grades in the subjects that count - maths, modern languages, physics and so on - come from private schools. The top rungs of our elite are more accessible than those in France, but we still deprive far too many clever children from poor homes of the chance to get the best tertiary education. Roughly a tenth of Oxbridge students come from the social classes that cover manual workers and the unemployed. But the sifting starts much earlier. Three-quarters of British 16 year-olds with parents in professional occupations are studying for A levels or the equivalent; under a third of students with parents in routine occupations are doing so. And roughly half the top A level grades in the subjects that count - maths, modern languages, physics and so on - come from private schools. The top rungs of our elite are more accessible than those in France, but we still deprive far too many clever children from poor homes of the chance to get the best tertiary education.

]]> by: Tim http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/#comment-19912 Mon, 13 Aug 2007 06:11:02 +0000 http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/#comment-19912 Welcome back to the blog, M. Scalpel. Your piece on the classes preparatoire is spot-on (I felt I didn't have the space to cover it, though my niece did the prepa for Sciences Po at a Marseille university and has interesting comments). I can't answer your question about UK universities, and am currently ploughed under a piece about Sarkozy's first 100 days, but have put your question to some much better informed friends who may answer in the next few days Welcome back to the blog, M. Scalpel. Your piece on the classes preparatoire is spot-on (I felt I didn’t have the space to cover it, though my niece did the prepa for Sciences Po at a Marseille university and has interesting comments). I can’t answer your question about UK universities, and am currently ploughed under a piece about Sarkozy’s first 100 days, but have put your question to some much better informed friends who may answer in the next few days

]]> by: ange salpel http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/#comment-19850 Sun, 12 Aug 2007 16:41:40 +0000 http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/#comment-19850 sorry the chart has been scrambled please look at the link above or at p. 8 of this document : http://www.ihes.fr/~lafforgue/textes/SavoirsFondamentaux.pdf sorry the chart has been scrambled
please look at the link above or at p. 8 of this document :

http://www.ihes.fr/~lafforgue/textes/SavoirsFondamentaux.pdf

]]> by: ange salpel http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/#comment-19849 Sun, 12 Aug 2007 16:38:46 +0000 http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/#comment-19849 This is an excellent account of the arcanes & curiosities of French superior education. But there is something missing to your account. Besides the Grandes Ecoles and the universities is another layer of superior education in France: the so-called "classes préparatoires aux grandes écoles", which belong to the Lycées and not the universities. These constitute a two or three year cycle of studies, where the "best" students from the lycées, prepare the entrance exams to Polytechnics, Normale Sup, HEC, etc. This system ("khagne", "taupe", in the local slang) has existed since Napoleon. Not every lycée has its "preparatory classes", only those in the center of the main French towns (hence where only the upper classes can afford to live and send their children to such lycées). There is no entrance examination to such classes, but only a selection ( most of the time done by the headmaster (proviseur) of the lycée on the basis of the student's grades at baccalaureat and of the last year of lycée. The teachers in these prep classes are well paid ( often better paid than academics in universities), and aware of their role in the selection of elites, because they know that they hold the key to enter the kingdom of Grandes Ecoles. But there is no need of a university academic degree other than the "agregation" ( no need of a university thesis) to teach in these classes. The teachers are selected by the Inspectors of Education Nationale and by no universiyt committee. This closed system has no connections with the university and it helps perpetuate what Pierre Bourdieu has described as a "noblesse d'Etat". When there are voiced asking for a reform of this system, which is utterly elitist, the powerful association of classes prépratoires threatens to go on strike. The argument the most often heard when one criticizes this system and when it is suggested that the clesses préparatoires should be mergend into the universities is: "Yes we know it is elitist, but why destroy what works well? " The results of this dual system of superior education are well documented : the proportion of children from the lower classes in superior education is well documented . See the eloquent following statistics Part des étudiants des grandes écoles d’origine populaire ( en % ) ( origine populaire = paysans, ouvriers, employés, artisans et commerçants ) 1951-1955 1973-1977 1989-1993 Ecole polytechnique 21,0 14,8 7,8 Ecole nationale d'Administration 18,3 15,6 6,1 Ecole Normale supérieure 23,9 17,2 6,1 HEC 38,2 31,5 11,8 total des étudiants 29,0 21,2 8,6 ensemble des 20-24 ans 90,8 84, 6 68,2 ( Source : M.Euriat et C.Thélot, Education et formations, juin 1995 ) see also : http://www.apmep-aix-mrs.org/maths/load/ineg_soc_GE.pdf I would be interested to know about how the UK fares on the same period with respect to access of popular classes to superior education and to the places which, mutatis mutandis, are where the British elite is formed ( Oxford, Cambridge, LSE etc.) This is an excellent account of the arcanes & curiosities of French superior education. But there is something missing to your account. Besides the Grandes Ecoles and the universities is another layer of superior education in France: the so-called “classes préparatoires aux grandes écoles”, which belong to the Lycées and not the universities. These constitute a two or three year cycle of studies, where the “best” students from the lycées, prepare the entrance exams to Polytechnics, Normale Sup, HEC, etc. This system (”khagne”, “taupe”, in the local slang) has existed since Napoleon. Not every lycée has its “preparatory classes”, only those in the center of the main French towns (hence where only the upper classes can afford to live and send their children to such lycées). There is no entrance examination to such classes, but only a selection ( most of the time done by the headmaster (proviseur) of the lycée on the basis of the student’s grades at baccalaureat and of the last year of lycée. The teachers in these prep classes are well paid ( often better paid than academics in universities), and aware of their role in the selection of elites, because they know that they hold the key to enter the kingdom of Grandes Ecoles. But there is no need of a university academic degree other than the “agregation” ( no need of a university thesis) to teach in these classes. The teachers are selected by the Inspectors of Education Nationale and by no universiyt committee. This closed system has no connections with the university and it helps perpetuate what Pierre Bourdieu has described as a “noblesse d’Etat”. When there are voiced asking for a reform of this system, which is utterly elitist, the powerful association of classes prépratoires threatens to go on strike. The argument the most often heard when one criticizes this system and when it is suggested that the clesses préparatoires should be mergend into the universities is: “Yes we know it is elitist, but why destroy what works well? ”

The results of this dual system of superior education are well documented : the proportion of children from the lower classes in superior education is well documented . See the eloquent following statistics

Part des étudiants des grandes écoles d’origine populaire ( en % )

( origine populaire = paysans, ouvriers, employés, artisans et commerçants )

1951-1955 1973-1977 1989-1993

Ecole polytechnique 21,0 14,8 7,8
Ecole nationale d’Administration 18,3 15,6 6,1
Ecole Normale supérieure 23,9 17,2 6,1
HEC 38,2 31,5 11,8
total des étudiants 29,0 21,2 8,6
ensemble des 20-24 ans 90,8 84, 6 68,2

( Source : M.Euriat et C.Thélot, Education et formations, juin 1995 )

see also :

http://www.apmep-aix-mrs.org/maths/load/ineg_soc_GE.pdf

I would be interested to know about how the UK fares on the same period with respect to access of popular classes to superior education and to the places which, mutatis mutandis, are where the British elite is formed ( Oxford, Cambridge, LSE etc.)

]]> by: Chris Maddock http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/#comment-18909 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:30:27 +0000 http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/blog/franceprofonde/universities-and-grandes-ecoles/#comment-18909 A comment on the Jiao Tong world rankings. Their scoring system is oriented towards science and technology and to research published in english, so the journals Nature and Science are key in their eyes (see http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2006/ARWU2006Methodology.htm). As TK points out, French engineering (and other science-based fields like pharma) is undoubtedly first rank. Presumably the grande écoles provide the leadership for the cadres in these fields of endeavour in France while the universities provide the rank and file. In the UK now many of the best S&T graduates seem to be creamed off by the financial institutions in the City where their quantitative skills are applied to the construction of derivatives etc. rather than TGVs. How sustainable this will be is a moot point. A comment on the Jiao Tong world rankings. Their scoring system is oriented towards science and technology and to research published in english, so the journals Nature and Science are key in their eyes (see http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2006/ARWU2006Methodology.htm). As TK points out, French engineering (and other science-based fields like pharma) is undoubtedly first rank. Presumably the grande écoles provide the leadership for the cadres in these fields of endeavour in France while the universities provide the rank and file. In the UK now many of the best S&T graduates seem to be creamed off by the financial institutions in the City where their quantitative skills are applied to the construction of derivatives etc. rather than TGVs. How sustainable this will be is a moot point.

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